Why Saying 'No' is Harder Than You Think: Navigating Mixed-Race Relationships, Business, and Boundaries

Get ready for real and raw discussions as we dive into navigating mixed-race relationships and motherhood to the intersections of our lives, money, and so much more.

Browner.

Thanks for hanging with us.

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What's your take on saying no to things? Like, are you someone that has a hard time turning down invitations, opportunities,

(...)

things, people?

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I feel like it's something that I think a lot of people struggle with or I hear a lot of people struggle with. A lot of my clients have this issue. It's like definitely one of the things that I find very, very frequently and I don't know if that's because most of my clients are people of color, so I don't know if that's something ... I'm saying on the women's side. I'm saying on the women's side. Not on the men's side, but let's not get it twisted. On the women's side, women of color,(...) I would say probably 90% of my clients have this issue.

Yeah. I don't know that it's women of color only. I think that this is a global thing that applies to

many, many

women,

which

is a problem saying no.

(...)

What's interesting is ... To answer your question,(...) sort of?(...) Is the truth ... I sometimes have a problem saying no and then sometimes I'm like get ass clear.(...) The things that I find harder to say no to are when I am being sold something that is about to help my business in some way and I've gotten on a call with

them.(...) It's

over. I am like the worst person to get on a call.

I want all my clients to be like you, all my consultations to be you.

Yeah, because you guys are like you, me,

I, and ... Because

I'll be like, yeah, okay.(...) I got in trouble with this because just last week my writer ...(...) It's not really a ghost writer, but there's a team of people that I'm working with to write this book.

(...)

This guy is always trying to sell me something,(...) trying to upsell me.

I'm

like, dude, no, no means no. I multiple times was like no.

That's super annoying.

He just kept pushing back, pushing back, pushing back and you could see it's a tactic. I can stand back and be like, you can't pull this shit on me.(...) I was like, fine, send me your contract and I'll take a look at it.

(...)

He said, okay, so I'll send you the contract and then you can sign off and we'll process the payment at 6 PM today. Really specific, right? I was like, well, send me the contract.

(...)

No point did I say, yes, I agree to your proposal.

(...)

He sent me the contract. I'm like, this is a fuck no.

(...)

Absolutely

not.

(...)

Because even though it sounds like a good idea, I don't have trust that they're going to deliver on this thing that they're promising.

(...)

So there's a lack of trust.

(...)

I message him that. I'm like, this is a no. I'm sorry. No, thanks.

(...)

And I get a phone call and a phone call and a phone call like he wouldn't stop calling me.

What? To say what?

And then he gets upset with me because he's like, you agreed to sign the contract and pay. What? And I was like,

dude, who is this guy?

(...)

Why are we working with him?

Exactly. Their whole like, I feel like this company, their whole thing is like you get people in and then you try to like, upsell them into all these. Yeah, he's probably making some sort of commission. He's like, so now I have to like tell my financial team that you're not doing it and I'm going to have to pay for this. And like,

why did you tell them I was doing it when I didn't say I was doing it?

At what point did you get a yes out of me? Say no multiple times. Say fine. Send me the contract as a way to literally get off the phone. Because at that point I was like, this has been 40 minutes. I need to just be done. This is

crazy.

So yeah.

So you were able to say no in that situation.

I hung up and there was another 40 minutes of him like, you can't say no because you already agreed. And do you want me to play back the recording? I was like, no, I don't need the recording because I didn't tell you shit.

(...)

If I didn't say shit, I'm not paying your shit. Like at no point are you going to guilt me into anything.(...)

That's ridiculous.

Anytime you were like way out of line, I'm sorry. That's a fuck no.

(...)

That's why people don't like to be sold to, man. It's people like that who like ruin it for everybody. Yes, that's awful. That's terrible. But like, outside of that. Who you wanted to say no and felt very happy saying no.

Often I feel with business things, I feel like it's a FOMO, right? Like, oh, I want to like, this sounds really good. And I want to do it. And like, it's an investment in my business. Yeah, they'll grow the business. There's all kinds of things that those are usually the ones that I'm like, man, how do I say no to this? Do I want to say no to this?

(...)

Like, I can see that there is like a, I made some bad business decisions last year or two years ago that I'm still feeling the trickle of. I'm still like, oh, another thing. Do I really want to say no? Do I want to say yes? Do I trust my intuition thing,(...) which was my usual way of making a decision is intuition.

(...)

So if I can no longer rely on my intuition.(...)

Then what are the metrics that were? Yeah,

because I feel like I made some bad decisions out of intuition.

Yeah, that's rough when you can't like, when you second guess yourself. But that I think that's like an epidemic for women, right? Second guessing ourselves, doubting our own choices. Right. And I wonder,(...) OK, so again, I'm going to bring up the cultural part because like, I can't not for I think a lot of us culturally, we are kind of conditioned that way.

We're conditioned to not say no.

To not say no and to not trust ourselves. Like there's there's not like,(...) I don't really remember being taught to trust myself. I don't know where I got that skill from. I think I got lucky in early in my life of doing work on myself and learned that.

(...)

Yeah, but I don't

think that that's because

no, because I meet a lot of women in their 40s who are still struggling with self trust and with confidence around choices and not needing approval or validation from external sources, whatever it is, whether it's a parent,

it's a husband, a

partner, a friend, a some resource of some sort, or even sometimes it's like more education, more education, more education because I don't trust myself. I don't trust my own knowledge. Right. So it shows up in a lot of different ways. And I certainly see it for women of color.(...) I think, you know, it's like you said, it afflicts all women. Do men have this problem too?

(...)

I don't think that it is the same for men.

(...)

I think that men are conditioned and taught to more easily say no.

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And I wonder if that starts in childhood where if like, are we treating young boys and girls differently when a girl says no is a parent or a teacher. I'm going to go to the divorce or question it versus if a boy says no. And like, at least for my child, he's going to double down on that. He's going to be like, absolutely not. I will not be forced into this. And he's like, he's already showing that tendency.(...) So I can't imagine that.

there are going to be teachers that are going to be likely to coerce him into me. Or people or friends or whatever.

(...)

Okay, so if the teacher is not coercing him because he's a boy, because to me that's a personality thing, that's not a boy-girl thing, right? Like the tendency to be that way, right?(...) How it's then conditioned and handled is different, right? Because then we start to get conditioned accordingly. So if I'm a little boy who is very sort of adamant about my nose and very stern and strong, and maybe like I act a certain way when I'm saying no, and I'm a teacher and I don't want to deal with it, if I have a little girl who's exactly the same, right? Because there are little girls who are exactly the same, am I doing something different with her? Am I trying to soften her up from her no? Am I trying to massage her out of her stance versus a boy who I'm like, well, boys will be boys. Like, I don't know, is that happening? Because it has to start somewhere. However,(...) I have male clients who are South Asian who struggle with saying no.

So South Asian and?(...)

And yes, and Asian.

(...) Like East

Asian. Yeah, Pan Asian.

They also are, is it like,(...) I feel like they have less of a, and I don't know what that is.

Okay.

And it's a gross generalization. Like this is not true for every South Asian.

(...)

But I feel like they are conditioned either by society, culture and their parents, whoever,(...) to have less of like a strong

position.

Yeah. Like, so this is what I'm about. And I said,(...) yeah,

I think that culturally, that's not a thing in general, maybe because all of the cultures that we just talked about are collectivist in nature. And(...) it is very much about the whole and the group and like making sure everybody is good and not just like the individual. So maybe part of it is that. But then I think about, okay,(...) there are right now more Indian male CEOs in this country than any other ethnic group, right?(...) Person of color ethnic group, right?(...) Talk to me about that. Like, how do like, are they are they?

But see, like, are they they're

not the majority. And I wonder, are they that way in their work environment, but not that way in other parts of their lives? Because what I do see in a lot of my male clients who have a hard time with no, it's no around their parents and family.(...) It's no around particular

things that

they can't say no, they feel obligation.(...) They feel yeah, like obligation. So and I will say it comes up around money things where there's a show of money in some sort where it's like, I need to show my status by saying yes to this thing, or I need to show my ability by saying yes to this thing. So it's about like, competition in some cases, and then family. That's the two places I will say I see it the most.

(...) Yeah. So South Asian male would consider more likely to not be able to say no, if it was a sales, like a car sales person that was like invited to each of by

my I wonder who drives a Tesla.

(...)

okay, if I'm really real about what my perception is, and this is my perception, I am this is my personal opinion, not judging anybody, you're putting my opinion on everybody. But my personal assertion on that is that South Asian and East Asian men have a particular standard when it comes to external things. So cars, homes, the look of things. So I don't actually think that they

(...)

can't say no, to I think they are more decisive about things about those types of things. I think it's where they fall down is when it comes to emotional exchanges, vulnerabilities,

(...)

places where they can't use those things to assert their worth.

(...)

Family, right? You like, yes, you can assert your value in some way with family. They respond to you because you're successful, quote unquote, but you're still the sun and you still have obligations and

you still have responsibilities.

So I think it gets very messy in those places. And then when it comes to things like saying no to, I don't know, maybe participating in something that will show their status or show their you know, that they don't really want to do, but they feel that they have to things like that.(...)

So I think that there might be a theory around this. Okay. And that(...) the shows of status or money are essentially the peacocking

modern society.

(...)

That's a quote from someone that we can, I don't know. So there is this idea that what can go off in our modern society, males are going to more likely to be driven towards showing off those types of things in general, right? Men don't buy Ferraris. Women don't buy Ferraris, right? Like to shit about like, Oh, I have red, hot drop top.

Yeah, there are some. She wants to ride in it, but yeah,

she might, she would probably prefer to ride in it and then

go buy

it. Yeah.(...) Oh, that's a very male peacocking behavior that is involuntarily like we are to a certain extent. So I think that probably not just South Asian men, but many general are going to be more likely to say, yeah, well,

show that. But I think that then if we're looking at other men who are not South Asian, Asian men from collectivist cultures, I think they don't struggle as much saying no in general. So I think that's the difference is that I think that they're also able to assert themselves in other areas, arenas, parts of their lives in a similar way. Because I do believe that there is a particular conditioning that happens around like guilt and shame around saying no. Or I mean, there are particular cultures that are known for people pleasing, right? Like that are known for caring. I mean, we know our culture in particular, South Asian culture, we're always saying like, everybody's thing is what will other people think, right?

And a lot of the times you're making decisions based on what other people will think. So even if you want to say no, you over here like, yeah, but what everybody else going to think. So now I got to say yes. Right. And then if I don't, there's guilt around it. I'm shamed. I'm pressured by other people. I'm ostracized. I'm there's consequence. So it almost feels like it's easier to say yes, I guess, in some cases.

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's true. I think that sometimes the yes, the men,(...) at least in the small simple set that I know, personally,(...) I would say that the ones who have more confidence are going to be the ones that are likely to their own inner sense as a compass for yes or no, versus those that have lower level.(...) They're going to be more easily.

For sure. I think that is women too. I think women

too. And I think that inherently as of gender,(...) then women are generally less.

(...)

For sure.

And that's going to be great. But they're like, women are generally less confident than men.

(...)

We see this in all kinds of places where they're not asking for the raise, they're not pushing what they need, etc. It shows up in so many ways.(...) But I think that then inherently in children,

(...)

we are more likely to call a young girl who has a sense of herself and is confident

(...)

and presents that way to the world, she is more likely to be called me.

(...)

Oh, she's buff,(...) right?

She's a bitch.

(...)

No,(...)

at eight, she's a bitch.

(...)

Don't get it twisted. They're saying stuff like that out here.(...) And yeah, you're right. I think(...) that is shifting a little bit. I think little girls are able to show up very differently than what was considered acceptable or just feminine once upon a time. There was a certain quality of confidence that wasn't associated with femininity. It was like the feminine was to be quiet and to be sort of in the corner and to be seen and not really heard so much. And not to have too loud an opinion. And that was once upon a time the expectation for us. So I think there's an evolution that we've had to go through also to move ourselves out of that place as women. I think there's always been women who have been vocal and loud and how can they not have been? We are who we are. Women have personality and character just like men do, but we've been taught to quiet it down and make it smaller. And so I think that is shifting, but I think that the response to it isn't shifting as fast.(...) In that people are self-serving, so they don't like to hear no. And if a woman is very confident and is able to assert a no very directly, it feels stinging, I think, to some people. And it feels very like... It feels different than hearing it from a man, I think, in a lot of cases.(...) And I think women don't like that response sometimes. They don't like the response that they're going to get if they say no, because they know it's not going to just be like, "Okay, cool." You know what I mean? And I think there's also an element of

(...)

women like to be part of a group too. And sometimes there's a belonging element with saying yes or overexerting, overextending yourself and trying to do it all. But I also think that we live in a society that kind of expects us to do it all. So it's hard to say no.

(...)

Yeah. Yeah. What kind of things feel like...(...) What are the most difficult things for you to say?

Doing too much. I find it really hard to ask for help.(...) Very difficult to ask for help. But that's kind of a reverse problem. So I am so self-sufficient that I'll say yes to too much. So I'll take too much onto my plate in the sense that... And then I don't like to ask for help.

(...)

But I won't overextend myself when it comes to giving my energy socially and things like that. I'm very okay with saying no to things. I've become very okay. Once upon a time, not at all. But that was FOMO. More than anything.

It was FOMO. I feel like that's the same for me. Any time that I felt intuitively like I shouldn't go to that thing. But then the desire to out ways is usually like, "Oh, I'm gonna get myself a..."

Yeah. And how many times have you gone out where you're like, "Oh, I'm so glad I came. I almost didn't come and I'm glad that I came." Because you really had a good time or it was just like a dope experience or whatever. So I also take that into consideration sometimes where I'm like, "If I go, I'll probably have a good time." But I will say there's been times that I've forced myself to go do a thing and I'm standing there like, "What the fuck am I here? What am I doing here?" I would so much rather be at home right now. So I think I've just become better at understanding when my body and my mind and my energy and my spirit need to hibernate and just get that time. But I also build that into my life so that I don't overextend myself to some extent. But that's a practice. I think that you just kind of learn that over time. I have never had a hard time saying no to people about things.

If I don't believe in something or if I don't want to do something, I don't have a hard time saying no to that. If it's like a sales thing, I'll feel uncomfortable as shit. I will struggle in my mind, right?(...) And it will be a conflict. And I'll feel bad after. I'll feel all the things. I will still say the note

though. But I will have

all the feelings around it. I'll feel guilty. I'll feel bad. Oh, you could have said yes. Or you should have said it like this. Or you like, "Had you said it like this, I will analyze the note." So I will

(...)

I would get in my head about the no.

(...) But no.(...)

Absolutely not.

don't say yes nearly as much to things that I don't want to say yes to as maybe I did once upon a time. And I think a lot of it is personality. You're talking about Avery being how he is now. And I think you and I have both kind of talked about who we were as young girls.(...) I was strong-willed. So I struggled through my strong will. It was a struggle to assert my strong will.(...) But

(...)

I had to say no a lot in order to assert it. And that was the struggle, is fighting through the judgment and fighting through the

difficulty, the

response of the of the no's. But I did it. And that's how I managed to get my parents to understand about interracial relationships at 16 and how I went to fashion school without telling anybody and how I did a lot of the things that I did and moved to New York without telling anybody.(...) I also didn't ask for a lot of opinions because I knew that(...) I didn't want to have to appease other people.(...) So I think there's ways that you can kind of manage it. But you got to be fucking strong. It's not easy.

It's not easy. And I feel like for women, especially towards other women,(...) like certain people,(...) right?(...) It's hard to say no. You feel that way. You feel something around it. So I think that as women,

(...)

more great for each other around,(...) like, it's just perfect.

(...)

Yeah, yeah. You know, I think it's just becoming okay with also hearing no is important and then reminding yourself that sometimes it's a no for you as well. So it's okay if it's a no for somebody else. I think a lot of times when you're invested in something, you want other people to be as invested as you or as excited as you or wanted as much as you. And that's just not the truth about things, right? Like that's just because you want it or you want it to be this way doesn't mean that somebody else does. I think just being more open to that variety is important. And just being able to not make a person feel bad because they said no, right? I think that we're talking about it on a mild level. This moves all the way up the ladder to emotional manipulation and narcissism, where it becomes like, there's consequence for saying no, right? Like there's true consequence and people become fearful of saying no to certain things or because there's such extreme consequence. And I see that definitely in some of my clients where there's so much conditionality around saying yes or no, meaning, "I'll take this away from you if you don't say yes." Or, "If you don't say no, I will no longer give you this thing that I promised you." So it's like you learn to(...) appease the people for the... It's like transactional, right? But it's also so conditional. So how do you ever develop self-confidence and self-trust and trust of other people when that's constantly being done to you?(...) It's tricky. It's really, really tricky. And it's pervasive in certain cultures and communities and families, right? Where there's very much a,(...) "If you don't study this, I'm not going to pay for your school."

(...)

Right?(...) Yeah, things like that.

Yeah. So things like that. Or if you're choosing to marry that person, I'm no longer going to support you pay for your wedding, whatever it is, right? Things like that where it's like your choice is questioned all the time. So where do you develop the trust to believe in your carving your own path?

(...) Yeah. Yeah. I think that's tricky, especially with parents.(...) I find that really tricky.(...) I definitely experienced that around. Yeah.(...) I had considered changing my nature to psychology with my grad and my parents from recently, like, have no...(...)

Really?(...) Pause there real quick and just explore that just for a moment because I didn't know this about medicine versus psychology. And maybe that's not even what you're talking about,

but I have... No, exactly. Okay.

Okay. Because please for a moment, let's take a pause and break it down for me because I have heard this from so many different people where they're like, "Yes,(...) I have about four clients who are psychologists," which is interesting, right? "Who's all their parents were mad and upset that they were pursuing psychology because it wasn't a medicine." And I was like, "Is it psychology medicine?" Like, it...

In the South Asian community, it is... What?

(...)

There's a lot of stigma still to this day around psychologists.

What? I did not know that. I thought, "Oh, well, you know,(...) you're still a doctor, like, in the middle of life. You a doctor too, so

what's the problem?" You go all the way... And do your PhD, yes. Then you're a doctor.

Or if you do your PhD in psychology. Or PhD in psychology. Meaning you're a specialized... I get it. I get it,

but... But there is so much stigma.

Why? Because it's mental health, because it's your brain and your mind.

It's mental health.

And because it's not your body?

(...)

Oh my goodness. I did not know that. I didn't know that. I don't know. I grew up... I'm about to be 44, guys. And I did not know that.

(...) Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that has been true. What are you telling me? Not just my life, but so many other people have the same experience.

(...)

And maybe not now. Like, not in our generation, but our parents' generation probably had...(...) Like, you don't go to a psychologist,(...) to a psychologist, and you...(...) Why would anyone go? Like, okay.(...) Don't. Around it.

Okay. Well, we're going to definitely have to do another episode on exploring this and mental health, because I truly didn't know that. But yeah. So, I mean, I have a client who, because she chose to study psychology, her parents actually stopped paying for her education. And she was like, considering dropping out and going back to medicine,(...) because...

(...)

Yes, just because of that. And so we had...(...) This was years before I met her, but yeah, that was her story.

So my parents were threatening to disown me, they were dead ass serious about it. They were like,(...) "What?"(...) And I was like, "Okay, fine. Whatever." Right? Like, I went through my own thing first. So I was like, "Whatever."(...) You know, on classes I'm taking.

Yeah, exactly. Right.

(...)

So I went and started taking a bunch of psychology classes. And then my other interest was religion. I took a bunch of religious classes.(...) So I basically had to track, and I was doing biology, psychology, and religion with the intentions that my parents thinking I was going to medical school.

Right.

(...) Being like, the more I learned, the more I'm like, "I don't understand how these three are not interrelated."

Right, exactly. They...

(...) Oh,

look at that. Yeah.

I mean, it makes so much sense. I really go to my...(...) And I had equal credits at all. Theoretically, if I had focused some exams, I could have graduated in one month.

In each one. That's dope.

(...) But I would go to my professor and be like,(...) "How can we integrate body, mind, spirit?"(...) And they were like, "Yeah, that's not a thing. To California, I have been."

Yeah. You're like, "Okay."

(...)

Wow. And okay. I mean, listen, I get it because we're not talking about yesterday. So we're talking about some years ago. And it's really recent that people started connecting all of these things and talking about it holistically and understanding the connection. I mean, people have understood it and known about it for centuries and millennia, really.

But it

hasn't been popular or put in practice on a public scale, on a mass scale,(...) and when the West doesn't embrace some... It's not often until the West embraces something that people accept it as being, "Oh, it must be real now." You know what I mean? Because they grow a neem in California all of a sudden now it's like, "Oh, okay." Like the

neem plant. Yeah.

Of course you do.(...) But it's not until people do a thing like that where it's...(...) Okay. We went on off on a total tangent, but that's one of those things where I just see the conditionality and it...(...) Okay. So even if it starts there where it's like, "Okay, I'm in college, I'm studying something, and my family is telling me I'm not going to pay for it unless I continue this thing or finish this thing. All right, cool." That seems like a one-off, but that literally starts to translate and come with you that second guessing that I need to check in with somebody or I need to pursue or satisfy somebody else's vision for myself that comes with you and that starts to...(...) That can start to influence how you say yes and no to other things as

well.

(...) And again, if you...(...) Generally, and again, this is a very general statement, but generally, if you are strong enough to fight back as you were or do your own thing and find your own pathway forward, then maybe the guilt and stuff isn't as pronounced as if you're someone who has a really hard time breaking away from that dictatorial kind of

place. Yeah, like if there's a hard stance on it. Yeah. But I also am curious just to play the other side,(...) their children's boundary, they need some guidance.(...) Right? And I have some interesting conversations.(...) I have one in college. I have a couple of college.

At six?

(...)

That's hilarious.(...) And I was like, "Well, that's adoption.(...) And that would maybe mean that you're going to have a job and you can be out of the house." And he's like, "No, but I want to go to college."

(...)

"Well, it's fair when we get there, but it's my mind. If you're not going to college, you're going to be out of the house."(...) And he's like,(...) "If I go to college, then where do I live?" And I was like, "No, you're still young on campus."

At college.

(...)

He's like, "No, but I want to go with you." Give

him five more years, see if he still says that.(...)

Unless

he's my son who's like, "I'm going to live with you forever, Mom, and nobody else." I'm like, "Get away from me. Give me my space.(...) Why are

you on me?"(...) Opposite.

(...)

We'll see how he's developed, but it's interesting because(...) to already be on that conversation,(...) am I repeating the same cycle if I say, "Well, if you're not going to college, you're not staying in this house?" I don't know if that's the

same cycle. You're still giving him choice. It's what he does with the choices.(...) I think the choice part is what's missing in a lot of the conditionality. There's lack of choice. You're giving him the choice of not going, and then you're just saying, but there is a condition around, "Yeah, there's a consequence or there's a responsibility then that you're going to have to pick up in order."(...) Listen, you might change your mind in that. He goes and gets a job. It's a great job. You're like, "Okay, well, you can stay here because you're being responsible. I see you pursuing something, and I see you doing something the same way that you would have done if you were in college pursuing something, doing something."

(...)

That might change, and it might not be just because you're not in college. It doesn't mean you got to go. I think you mean you can't just be hanging out here hanging out. You know what I mean? Why are you not in college and you don't have a job? We're not doing that.

Ain't no child of mine doing any of that. They're not doing that, but I think that still is choice.(...) Even I had a conversation with Asaya the other day, because I'm really curious as to when his liking of girls and stuff is going to pick up because he's still very innocent and disinterested when it comes to those things. I want to always have conversations with him, making sure that he knows he has choice and that anything will be accepted in our home. We ask him all the time, "Is there a boy you like? Is there a girl?" We'll just throw it out there, and we're not actually being funny about it. We're literally being like, "We're throwing this out. Take what you can get, and let's see what you respond to because I want him to know that he has choice." I tell him all the time, "You don't have to go to college." That's a choice. If you want to pursue what it is that you want to pursue, you want to be a wildlife biologist, you are going to have to go to

college. You got to go to college.

He's very clear on which colleges offer what he wants, but the option is there. We just recently started talking about he's starting to get into photography. He loves to draw. He's very much an artist. His dad bought him a camera. Thank you, dad. That's the only one thing he ever bought. A Polaroid at that. Not a real, real, real camera.(...) Anyway, just to get him started, he went to photography camp this summer. I was like, "Listen, that's an option too. He loves watching those documentaries on life and planet earth and all of those." I'm like, "Why not? That could be you too." I always try to expand as much as possible and give as many possibilities as possible because I don't feel like I was given that. I wasn't that limited, I will say. I used to say I wanted to be a doctor and my dad was like, "No, you absolutely don't. No, you don't. Stop saying that."(...) There is no other Indian dad in the world who is by telling his daughter that she does not want to be a

doctor.(...)

He knew that wasn't my thing.

I was saying that because I thought that's what I was supposed to say. And then he was like, "No, you actually don't." He's like, "You want to go to school till you're 35?" And he has a great amount of respect for doctors, and he's somebody who actually is very moved by people's titles and stuff like that. So it was interesting that he did not assign that to me at all. I was given choice, but it was still limited, and it was still within very particular parameters, and it was like what was safe. I really try to give my kids more than that, but yes, then the question comes into play. What are the non-negotiables? What are the boundaries that are absolute? What are the consequences then of making certain choices? Because I think you have to build that in too. So I think that that part is important, but I think not giving kids choice and not giving them the opportunity to make mistakes, which is I think a thing a lot of parents try to prevent their kids from doing these days, that also limits their ability to self-trust. That limits their ability to know when to say yes and no, or what they really want, or who they really are. So I think a lot of that starts in childhood. I really think that a lot of what we end up overcompensating for later on is because we(...) haven't figured it, you know, we haven't unraveled, unpacked at

I think that children should have choices, and I feel like even this question of college or not, that didn't even exist as a paradigm when we were young.

No.

Like, of course you go to college.

Yeah, that's just an expectation.

(...)

But now,

the more that it becomes apparent that people can be successful even without going to college, I think that opens up a whole new arena that they could forge a life path that has nothing to do with more schooling.

(...)

Yeah, I mean, and that's just one angle, right? So there's choice around partners. There's choice around sexuality. There's choice around all these different things that, you know, I think people have a hard time and have a lot of guilt around saying no or saying yes in some cases because, again, society tends to limit us, and then depending on the family that you've come from or the culture that you've come from, then you have different rules in place because of that, just constantly trying to navigate this thing, and it's hard to find yourself within all of that, right? It's really hard to listen to yourself and hear yourself and understand what's yours and not what is everybody else's, you know, like, words and thoughts.

Yeah, and like, I kind of, I sometimes worry that there is too much choice. Mm-hmm. There's too much choice. Like, if there was only the decision to make is like, what are you going to college for versus now? Do you want to go to college or not? Then, okay, you don't. Now, okay, amongst all of the things that you could do, what's calling to you? Like, it's just, it's so much more to have to dig, and in the context of sexuality, it's like, oh, well, I could be into he, she, they,

like, all kinds of things. But, you know,(...)

the thing is, like, I think with all of this choice is also coming change in that things don't feel as permanent anymore. You know, I think there's more flexibility and fluidity in how we operate and live, and I think that people can be fluid in their gender expression. I think you don't have to just be one thing. Some people feel like they are, right? Just, they're very kind of sure in what their, you know, preference is, and then some people are like, no, I'm fluid, and this is how I feel now, and maybe I've had a different experience that makes me feel like this then. And I think that has to do with choice around career and things like that as well, where it's like, you know,(...) people are evolving into doing so many different things now, right? And nobody is staying at one job for 40 years anymore and retiring from that job, like, who's doing that, right? And I think there's now it seems like there's a way for you to start with one thing and easily grow into a different thing that's parallel or adjacent or, you know, sometimes even very different, but you can bring a skill set with you. So I think there's just also a lot more options that come with the choices. Like,(...) I think, yes, we have so much choice. It's an overwhelming amount of choice. It's overwhelming how many decisions we have

to make in a

day. I think I did do some research around how many decisions, I can't remember the number, is now micro and macro decisions that we make as humans. I think it's over 3,000 or something like

that

in a day.

(...)

Micro and macro decisions, and that starts with like, what are you going to wear, you know, all the little things, and the bigger life things that we deal with every day. It's an incredible amount of processing that we have to do. Imagine being unsure,(...) like, a lot of the time within those 3,000 decisions. Like, imagine.

That feels so exhausting.

It is. And so. Just the

thought of it is like, oh.

So exhausting. I will say, I'm a super indecisive person when it comes to a lot of things. Not in my,(...) not, you

would never know.

You got to live with me to know. Ty knows.(...) Like, you would never know how indecisive I am. I'm very, very indecisive, and it drives me crazy.

I sometimes feel that way about myself.

Okay, so you understand.

Yeah, I do understand. I feel like there are times when I have really clear decisions.(...) Right? Like, this is a no.(...) Hell yeah. Fuck no.

I'm going to learn my usual

things. And sometimes I just know what the answer is.(...) But for a lot of things, it's not always clear. Clear, yeah. And in those moments, it's sort of challenging to figure out, like, okay, well, what decision

(...)

do I, what's the best decision here? And sometimes there isn't one. Right? Like, there isn't a clear best decision.

It could

be like, make this decision and fall flat on your face, but you learned the best lesson ever.(...) Or make the other decision and get to wherever you need to go. And you're like, yay, yes, that word. Like, but

you never really know till you make the decision. Right? And that's the, that's the hard part is like, it's, I guess, the fear and the anxiety around making the quote unquote, wrong decision. Right? And then there's this thing where it's like, I mean, the amount of time I spend, it's an embarrassing amount of time that I spend comparing products and items for purchase and reading reviews. Like, it's an embarrassing amount of time that I spent doing this. Okay. Like, I will not, I

will not reveal it.

Okay.

Like,(...) it is like not normal. Okay. Like, and then I want to check the reviews on every site because I don't believe this one. And then I'm like, well, let me look at this other version of this. Like, I mean, I drive myself absolutely insane. And so I understand the overwhelm of indecision and I understand the overwhelm. But again, like in certain things, I'm grateful because there's a lot of areas where I'm very certain and very direct and very clear. Mostly for me, it's with shopping and like comparing items and making like personal life decisions. I would say it's more personal life stuff.

I so I was gonna say I think my harder decisions are the smaller decisions.

(...)

Like very often indecisive about clothing.

Okay. Okay. That are not okay.

(...)

And I, oh my god, like packing for trips is like,(...)

oh, yeah,

the worst thing. Ever. Because like, you gotta decide, you gotta decide and dance

and be limited and be committed to what you've decided on. Yeah, it's a lot of pressure.

I have given in and stop trying to like have a small suitcase. I don't care how many days it's gonna be a big ass puppy suitcase.

So you have options.

(...)

Like let's just call it what it is. I'm gonna want to decide between three different things for every single day.

(...)

And I no longer have a guilt about it before it used to be like, oh, but I have to pack everything into this little because

what why do you have to

I was I think there was a point in my life where I was like, well, I'm not paying extra for this.

Okay. All right.

(...) Yeah, the carry on. Yeah. So like I traveled with my carry on forever. Okay,

well, we don't have that problem anymore. What's the problem now?

(...)

It feels exhausting to be able to.

through like what the weather is going to be and what you're going to be doing.

So I think that the level of decision and the foresight, especially for like business conferences, I have one that's coming up that I'm like, and I go to the same conference every year. So I feel like I should be better at this by now.

(...) Like I

kind of know what it's going to be like, but it's always the same issue. It's cold as fuck outside. It's

cold as fuck inside.

You want to have cute shoes, cute outfit.

(...)

You got to be able to change in and out of stuff quickly because there's like multiple events in the day and you have to be dressed appropriately for each one.(...) It's a lot. So that that conference is like the worst thing to talk for.

(...)

Well you better get started. No. So when you do this, I'm going to wait

till the very last minute. I will be packing either the night before if it's early morning flight or the day of if it's a late afternoon flight because I found that if I don't have a ton of time,(...) then I'm just like, find whatever.

This is what it's going to be.

Throw it all in there and you're done.

Okay. All right. Listen, you found a solution to your problem. That is good. Just throw it in your bag. That is good.

(...)

Yeah. I mean, I would don't know what I would have done with myself if that was my problem. I traveled for 10 years, I think 90% of the year. It was always very much like,(...) yeah, you feel very limited. And so I got very, very well, also the clothes part doesn't get me, but I'm like that with other things where it's like, you don't know which way it's going to go. So you're like, you want to be prepared for all of it or you just want to know what the outcome is going to be so you can like plan ahead. But I get it. I think it really is, it can afflict so many different parts of your life. Again, depending on I think what your own personal hang ups, your own personal, what you perceive as your own weaknesses, the areas that you're insecure.

(...)

And then if there's like pressure around the thing, right? In this conference, for example, you know you want to present a certain way. I have a trip coming up and I have to pack for three weeks and I'm like,(...) oh, okay.(...) There's so many different elements that have to be thought

about.

(...)

They've already asked me one or two. I was like two, if not three. Okay.

(...)

Yeah, like, yeah, it

is not a problem. It is worth it to have all the shoes that I want to have. But yeah, you know, I think when it comes to those things, it feels like it should be a simple thing, but it speaks to a bigger thing, right? It's about how you perceive yourself and how you want to show up in the world and how you want to be received in the world and all of those things. So I think a lot of the time when people have a hard time saying no or whatever, it's about how they're being perceived, how they're being judged, if they're being judged. Are they being liked? A lot of people want to be liked by everybody, an impossible task, right? But we do task ourselves with that, trying to get everybody to like us. I mean, I have an okay time now accepting that.(...) It was actually, you know, it was never really a thought for me. I never really spent a lot of time thinking about people not liking me. It's not like something I worried about.

(...)

Now I'm more conscious of like, oh, of course there are people who don't like me. Like, there's got to be, there's people I don't like. So there's got to be people who don't like me too. And that's okay.

(...)

I don't think I've ever done anything or acted away specifically for people to like or not like me. Just for me, it's not really been a thought.

(...)

And it's not really come up as a thought to consider until other people are like, you know, sort of wanting to work through their desire for people to like them. But I get it. It's a, you know, it's a real thing.

It's a, it's a very natural evolutionary, biological thing, because if people didn't like you, you are going to be excluded from the group. Yeah. And you were less safe. Yeah. So it almost is like a survival survival. Yeah.

Yeah, I get it. I completely get it. Absolutely. And, you know, there is a conformity that is necessary. You know, there is, you know, it becomes difficult. Because you look at the world and you're like, okay, well, I don't agree with a lot of the way that, you know, we operate in this world. But it's like, there are some things you have to conform to. And there are some standards that you've got to live by. And that sometimes means that you're going to have to say no when you want to say yes, or when you're going to have to say yes when you want to say no. But I think it just becomes like,(...) are you saying it consciously knowing that you are in integrity with yourself? Or you're conscious of why, rather than just doing it to appease somebody else.

Do you think men have the same need for acceptance and conformity?

(...)

I do, actually. Really? Yeah, I do. I think they process it differently. I don't think they make it mean as much as we make it mean. I think we allow it to destroy our entire character. We're not good enough. We're not pretty enough. We're not enough. I think they have the same need for it. I think they don't process it maybe as harshly. Like, they maybe don't make it mean as much about them. But I think it just goes back to like what we were talking about earlier, just how we're conditioned as boys and girls growing up, right? Like, girls are just naturally exposed to way more reason to be insecure, right, than boys.

It's funny, I was almost coming to the conclusion that men are not the same.

Like they don't need it?

For conformity and their need for acceptance.

(...)

And maybe this is my filter because my husband's unique. But in society,(...) men don't relate to safety the same

way that

female-bodied people do.

(...)

And they don't constantly walk around thinking, "Am I safe? Am I safe? Am I safe?" And we may not be doing this on a conscious level, but women are doing that.

For sure.

Two thousand times a day, right? Probably more than that.

(...)

And I don't... If you don't relate to your safety in that way, and you don't have the "I'm safer in a group, I'm safer with more numbers."

(...)

And then, hence, you don't have the same level of need for acceptance, right? They could...

(...)

And this is not all men, but potentially, like, I can be out here on my own and I have no need to fit into anything because I don't give two shit.(...) Because inherently, I'm safe.

(...)

I get it. I definitely think that there probably is more ability for men to stand apart and be... But then I think about things like cults, or particular religious groups, or just particular groups. There are usually equal numbers of men and women in those groups.

Really?

Yeah.(...) I watch all of them. I like, "Oh, all of them." Ty is

obsessed with those. All the

cult shit. All the cults, and all the religions, and all the groups, and all the things,

right? Maybe you're right. Like, even men have a need for...

It's a need for belonging, right? There's still a need for belonging. I think, again, how they...

(...)

Because they're looking for less safety and there's less...

(...)

There are less reasons for them to feel insecure in a lot of spaces and a lot... With themselves, with other people, then maybe it is easier for them to stand apart. Or we are looking more for that. But I think...

(...)

I could be wrong, but I think biologically we all have the same need for belonging and for being part of a group and for attachment and things like that, right?

(...)

I think we can...(...) The way we're conditioned then, and the way we're socialized, has a lot to do with then how we end up expressing that over time. But yeah, I think it's much easier for men to be okay independently and feel secure. And I think that society is set up for men to feel safe in pretty much every space, especially white men.

(...)

And I think that black men don't have that same experience. So I think there is more need for a group with black men. So I don't know. I don't know the answer to that at all.

(...)

Zero percent.

(...)

Yeah, it would be interesting to get a male perspective on that because I think it will also depend on their own particular experience and what kind of world they were raised in. And because I will say, I know a lot of men who do have a friend group, but I know a lot of men who don't have a big friend group who kind of move through the world a little bit more independently and don't have the, I don't know, quote unquote, need. I don't know if it's really like, or just haven't connected in the same way and seem okay. I don't know, but I'm sure there are women like that too. I just don't find that I know that many women who are,(...) because the women that I meet who don't have connections on that level feel lonely about it. They feel like there's something missing. Whereas I don't think men report that something is missing for them when they don't have that.

I think there is, there's this movement on social media of men acknowledging that they have a need, they feel alone, they feel like lonely or need for more connection is being expressed by some people. But I think that there are likely men that could care less.(...) And it wouldn't be, I think it would be not as weird to find men that are in that group of people that are like, connect with people when I do and when I don't, whatever,(...) like, yeah, on my brain, I could care less, right?

Yeah.

(...)

Well, men like that, I think certainly don't have a hard time saying no, and don't have guilt around it or

feel

shame around it. I think men like that can easily assert themselves and feel very valid in their opinions. And I think honestly, sometimes men are like that to a fault, you know, where they are in a position and don't want to budge from that position and feel so self-righteous in that position, right? So I think it can go very extreme sometimes with men where it's like, no, my yes is my yes, and this is just the way it is. And they're resistant to seeing other ways or perspectives or, you know, where they're too sure in their stance and too sure, overly confident

in their opinion. I don't truly, I know there's this movement of talking about narcissism, but is that like the edge of where people start potentially like- Maybe. I mean, I think-(...)

Yeah, I think that's like a mild sort of like one-up position. It's just like a posturing, right, of like superiority. And I don't know that it always comes with narcissism, but there is, I think sometimes, a more tendency, and again, generalization.

(...)

You guys should know by now, we speak generally.

(...)

It's hard to always be like so politically correct, right?

I think there is a overall superiority that men often exhibit, especially if they- So when you talk about like coming up from that one-up sort of position, it usually comes from two places. One of like severe neglect and abandonment, where you had to sort of use that as your own survival, right? You had to like bolster yourself up over confidently or where it was modeled for you, where you saw it modeled over and over again, right? The superiority and the posturing and so on.(...) And there's other places it comes from, but usually from those two places. So I think that, you know, is just more inherent in a person that was born male and presents and moves in the world as a male than women. I think just biologically, I think that's, and then the conditioning as well. So yeah,

(...) so I have a question. Okay.

(...)

If someone were listening to this, let's suppose it's a woman who is like, "Dang, I really gotta like get better about saying no. What would your advice be to them?"

Understand why you're saying yes first,(...) right? Like what is it about the yes that feels like you're obligated or compelled to do, right? Like what do you feel like you're going to be missing or what do you perceive as the consequence or what are you afraid of happening if you say,

no. If you were to not say no.

If you were not to say no, right? So like,(...) I think understanding why your response is what it is, is important because we default to responses, right? We think we're supposed to. It's like a should, but we don't know why we should and we don't explore that. Like why am I feeling inclined to do this thing? And then understanding like, what is the consequence of the other thing, right? And then you have to weigh that and decide what's best for you. And a lot of times I think people in doing that work to identify why they feel away about it, they're like, "Oh shit, like why should I feel away about this? This is like ridiculous."

(...)

Yeah.

(...)

Well, I mean, I hope it's helpful because it does work though. It does work in that it makes you think beyond the response, beyond the default, right? It makes you understand sort of what trap you're consistently falling into because you will recognize that there's a pattern, right? There's some fear, some consequence you're afraid of, or some response that you don't want or do want or whatever that usually comes with this.(...)

Yeah.

(...)

I think my advice would be to tune into your intuition and to build that muscle because I do think it's a muscle and like really following your intuition and then see what happens. And then you're like, "Oh, that was really good. Great. Maybe I'll follow it again."

What if it doesn't work out?(...) Like you were saying earlier. Yeah.

(...)

So again,(...) I default to intuition. So my mode for the last couple of years has been great. So I'm going to like take a break from all of it. I'm just going to like filter out the things that I said yes to that maybe were aligned and what I needed to do and the things that I said yes to that weren't aligned and I shouldn't have said yes to.

(...)

Just like filter it all away, go back to the basics and then start rebuilding that muscle because I feel like it was a breaking trust with my higher self.

(...)

And there's like in reality, there's no reason to feel that way. I still got lessons out of it.

Yeah. Well, you were reminded that you had to lean back in.

Yeah. And like the bad decisions may not have...

(...)

They probably weren't as bad as I am making them out to be. I think the worst, like the biggest loss was money. And in the grand scheme of things, money and everything. Yeah, for sure. So it's like, okay, well, I lost a couple,(...) 10,000.

No.

Oh, well, you know, it's not...(...) It was a good chunk of money. I made investments in some companies that I shouldn't have that basically bankrupted.(...) Now they're in lawsuits and I'm like, you guys promised us a lifetime thing that you were no longer

delivering on.

Oh, shit. Yeah, that's rough.

(...)

So stuff like that, that it's just like it was bad moves. But in retrospect, I'm like, absolutely, I can see why I made that decision.(...) I can see... And what I'm getting to see now is the inner workings of why that even existed. Right. Right? Like, how did this company get so popular that hundreds of us bought this like, essentially, like a scam? A scam. A scam.(...) Yeah. That they were going to deliver on this thing for a lifetime that they are not... Like you can't be a lifetime if you are no longer a company. Right?(...) Yeah, it's a little difficult.

(...)

If you need to shut down. So I can like, as I'm like integrating more of this, I can start to see like what the lesson is behind the veil.

(...)

And like, and I can see why I made that decision. Like it came from almost a cockiness of in business. Right? And that this, I know what I'm doing. And then that's because it's new things. Right? Instead of like really evaluating and digging deeper. Yeah. Being like, wait, if you're so famous, why the fuck don't you have a following on social media? If you're not on there.

Yeah. Because we see what we want to see. Right?(...) And we see things that are going to serve our story that we've crafted in our own head. And I think, you know, that that is...

(...)

That's the lesson. Right? And that's the lesson. And yeah, listen, if you are saying no and you mean yes, or saying yes and you mean no, there's going to be a consequence. It's about really finding the lesson in the consequence and then trying not to repeat that thing again. Right?

Absolutely. So I like, I took it kind of hard. I've been like a little bit sad about it, but like the big perspective is I didn't lose that much. Right? I can make it all back.

(...)

And I learned some lessons and this, like, still I want to rebuild that trust in myself.

(...)

So the way to do that is still like allow the small decisions to still be guided by intuition.

Did that work? Did that not work? Did I listen to my intuition? Did I not listen to my intuition? And keep following that even though there was a kind of a break in that tone. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then--

That's such an important lesson of forgiving yourself, too, right? And like not shaming yourself into more

distrust and less belief in yourself, right? Because that could go the other way in that it would be easy to be so hard on yourself and allow your inner critic and allow that part of yourself that wants to prove yourself wrong because we all have that part, right? That wants to give in to your insecurities. It would be easy to lean into that, right, in a situation like that. So it's, you know, those moments, I think, where we really can choose

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